Summary of Oral History Interview by OurStory Scotland

Interviewee: Nick Laird

Interviewer: Jaime Valentine

Place of Interview: Bridge of Allan

Date of Interview: 21 June 2006

Summariser: Dominic Miller-Graham

Access no. AA015

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00:00 Nick [N] born 1972. Mum a shop manager and Dad a painter and decorator, now a retired fireman. Brought up in Bellshill, a working-class mining town in North Lanarkshire. N left Bellshill at 18, did not fit in. Siblings and extended family still live traditional life there, having children when young. N wasn’t like that.

02:12 Always felt different. Named a ‘tomboy’: liked the ‘boy’ part, but different from other tomboys. Identified more with boys but different, not a girl or a boy. Tomboy was the only term available, not derogatory. Society values masculinity: it is more frowned upon for a boy to be feminine than a girl to be masculine.

05:00 Strict Catholic school. Rigid differences between boys and girls: didn’t fit into either. Uncomfortable wearing skirt. Didn’t play with girls. Felt different from others and they couldn’t place N. Preferred boys’ activities but excluded: ‘isolated myself … didn’t know how to relate as me.’ Until recently N has always been asked whether boy or girl. Question makes N uncomfortable and now angry: right answer is ‘no’.

07:38 Whole society is binary, male or female. Has two birth certificates, male is blue, female is red, like traditional gendered colours blue and pink. N first thought would like mixture: purple. Now N feels yellow, gender-neutral colour. N writing book about transition ‘Yellow to Yellow’.

09:54 Pre and primary school said ‘I’m a boy’, impacted Mum who discouraged this. N didn’t understand impact, how it would be perceived: only wanted to be N. Forced to dress like girl, so always a huge fight to get N to go anywhere. Couldn’t express identity and join in with other kids. Clothes are gendered so relevant. Stopped saying ‘I’m a boy’ in high school, understood negative impact. Was too old to be a tomboy. Sent home from school at 11 or 12 for wearing trousers, angered N. No logic to gendered rules: N frustrated, couldn’t express anger then. Would have upset Mum, kept trousers a secret.

14:50 Cut hair short when younger, upset Mum. Mum encouraged more feminine clothes, which frustrated N. Mum worried about N and was critical. N unsure what family’s expectations were: not possible to define boy/girl without contradictions.

17:22 Younger sister supportive, called ‘Nicola’ Nicholas, backed up N’s identity. Accepted N the most: knew N the most. No adults supportive. Grandad acknowledged ‘grandson’, N liked this: acceptance. Now thinks grandad not supportive: too embarrassed to correct stranger. 9 month stay in Livingston at 9. No school uniform, wore trousers: felt free. Teacher put N in boys group: felt comfortable.

No other teacher recognised N like this: no explanation.

20:48 Boys accepted N depending on clothes, difficult in skirt: unsure if this was them or N. Looked like a boy, accepted as a boy: kids learnt N was a girl. If asked boy or girl, N answered ‘boy’, though binary answer didn’t seem right, and afraid of being outed. Made to wear skirt so hid: outed as a girl, humiliated by kids. Feels behaved like a boy would have.

23:51 Identified strongly as boy, only binary choices. Always called ‘Nick’: felt needed official name ‘Nicholas’. ‘Nick’ on birth certificate now. Didn’t want to change identity through transition: acknowledged continuity in name.

25:16 No interest in girls as a child: thought all girls wanted to be boys but coped better and conformed to it. N felt wrong. Girls’ things boring. Felt more free as a boy: games more exciting, hard to identify why. Gifts were gendered girls’ toys: N enjoyed some of them. Playing with dolls too long caused breathing difficulties: anxious child, nervous twitches. Anxiety when confined to expectations of a girl: felt suppressed.

29:42 At secondary school, after sole attempt to wear trousers, tried to conform to expectations. Quiet in school, couldn’t socialise, hated it: more sociable outside. Started truanting in second year: used to write sick notes. Caught: felt humiliated at being a bad kid. Attended school when had to, and left as soon as could.

[Ends 32:35]

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00:00 Socialised differently inside and outside school: Catholic and Protestant split. Against faith schools. N different in school. George Michael hair style: androgynous. Gender differentiated in teens: N left out of binary - isolated. N identified with boys’ development. Bullied, afraid of developing. Teen years difficult, missing memories.

05:38 Coronation Street, That’s Life: didn’t identify with people on TV. Identified with Boy George, gender ambiguity: obsessed with Culture Club. Daily Record, derogatory headlines: ‘gender bender’, but at least recognition.

08:15 N identified with younger ‘masculine’ girl in Bellshill, who wanted to be called ‘James’. No people like N on TV. Trans women represented: sensationalised. Out On Tuesday, about gay people: identified with ‘masculine’ lesbians, watched secretly. Told of Pink Triangle, ‘poofs and lezzies’: recognition felt significant, though portrayed as sinister.

13:00 Puberty progressed: stopped socialising. Bellshill Harriers, loved running: felt free. Stopped due to puberty: numb. Tried to conform, felt resigned: ‘lost myself’. Liked androgynous body, comfortable with genitals: no choice in puberty - depressed, started truanting.

16:17 Enjoyed drawing and writing. Loved English, art and PE (until puberty). Art teacher Miss McPherson liked David Bowie: respectful to N staying in art department.

Got lost in books, stories. N repetitively drew boys: N drew self as boy at 6. Gran retired head teacher, read her books, liked poetry. Wrote stories about family: adventures of N as a boy. Played with boy doll and cut-out pictures of boys. Expressed identity in play.

21:07 Always had sexual feelings. Childish curiosity: caught by Mum, humiliated. Society is uncomfortable about sex, passed onto kids. Religion: shame around sex. Taboo made sexuality more interesting. Curious: experimented with other kids, but felt this was bad. Had sex at 13, boy told people, seen as hero, while N was called names: double standard. N promiscuous: behaved male but seen as female: felt shame, depressed.

27:02 N came out as bisexual to sister’s friend at 14: bad reaction. Knew term and seemed to fit. Flirted with girl: felt good, felt like a boy. Boys were for sex, girls for feeling masculine. Interpreted experience as bisexuality. Sister’s girlfriends treated N differently, which N liked. But when came out as bisexual to Jackie, she avoided N and told people, so N said it was a joke.

30:51 Aged 16 came out as lesbian, as seen on Out On Tuesday. Identified with Boy George too: gentle masculinity. Boy George and masculine women, similar gender performance, identified with both. Lesbian identity gave N somewhere to fit.

[Ends 32:27]

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00:00 Contacted Gay Switchboard by letter - embarrassed, terrified. N finds labels restrictive - tried to fit into ‘lesbian’, lost parts of self; only option was to accept being a woman, though different kind: lesbian. Switchboard told N about Austin’s bar, Hope Street, Glasgow. Spent summer terrified to enter and underage: 17. Anxiously attended ‘ice breaker’: people were friendly. Invited to go to Bennets at weekend. Had to lie to Mum: suspicious of N but happy that N was going out and gave N money. Amazed at Bennets and its characters: trans women, Victor flamboyant with trench coat. Felt could fit into ‘where the different people come’.

05:11 Met Alison, first partner: like no women from Bellshill. Asked N to dance. N was 17, Alison was 27: seemed old. Start of double life: quiet N at home, N in town with ‘the different people’.

06:27 Found ‘lesbian’ uncomfortable: N dislikes word, negative associations, preferred ‘gay’ and used that term. Aged 17 at home, kept secret diary about Alison, read by sister: knew N was involved in something. Sister shared with best friend. Taboo subject: N, sister and best friend shared alcohol at weekends, talked then over period of months. Felt pressure to fit in as lesbian: denied experiences with boys, created a lesbian identity to be accepted.

11:24 Separation of home life and weekends out at Bennets, staying with Alison. Alison came to Bellshill once: culture shock, teenagers drinking behind Bellshill Academy, highlighted age difference to Alison, finished with N. Break with Alison

was temporary: together 7 years, until N aged 24.

14:01 N came out to Mum as lesbian and moved to Glasgow with Alison. Couldn’t talk to Mum, wrote letter to come out. Mum and Dad divorced but met to discuss, huge upset but not talked about with N, only knew through sister. Dad asked sister to encourage N to change, become conventionally feminine. N 15 when parents divorced, Dad lived locally, N saw Dad but more took Mum’s side. Parents had N at 17, stayed together for kids, grew apart.

16:46 Brother much younger, 6½ year gap, so not close: more close now. Before birth N asked to guess gender, wanted boy as ‘terrible shame to be born a girl’. N annoyed because brother got to be born a boy and N couldn’t.

18:20 Mum and N didn’t speak about letter: N mortified but didn’t ask. Sister told N about parents meeting. With Mum it wasn’t mentioned and Mum stayed exactly the same. Dad vocal, Catholic, though N thinks hypocrite: said N would ‘burn in hell’. N not upset as didn’t believe: retaliated that would prefer hell with pals than heaven with people like Dad. N gets on with Dad now, but at the time rejected Dad, changed surname. N saw self as more intelligent: now N acknowledges different experiences - Dad’s childhood. At start of N’s transition Dad said, ‘you can’t be a man because you don’t go to the bookies and you don’t like football’. N now thinks Dad did the best he could. N horrified imagining being in parents’ shoes, having kid at 17. N and Dad understand each other more now.

23:01 Never spoke with Mum, Mum always nice but N thinks homophobic. Mum met Alison and was nice to her. N hurt because parents never asked about relationships: sister open, her relationships valued. Mum said N too masculine to be woman, Dad said N too feminine to be man: N interested in one person being seen in both these ways, binary perspectives. Mum died at 44, breast cancer: highlighted importance of the body and gender identity for Mum. Mum knew about transitioning, thought N was stupid. Mum and N communicated through sister, N admires sister. Mum aware of own death, and spoke of life being short and that N should do what needs to do to be happy. N thinks Mum referring to transitioning.

27:42 That changed N: thinks less about conforming, less restrictive. Doesn’t believe in true identity: feeling comfortable doesn’t come with labels, identity is not fixed, perspectives change. Helps N answer ‘are you a boy or a girl?’ The answer is no: doesn’t inform who N is but what N isn’t.

[Ends 30:26]

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00:00 First relationship: Alison, 10 years older, worked at Celino’s Italian restaurant, Glasgow. Alison seemed rich and freer. Met at Bennets in October 1989: the following June, Alison asked N to move in. N afraid to tell Mum, so told her and left home day after: little brother affected. When N shares coming out story, would say Mum accepting because not emotional, ‘nothing happened’.

03:54 Moved in with Alison, got job at same restaurant: N had little experience of restaurants, took months to fit in. Worked and lived with Alison for seven years. Relationship with Alison: work and alcohol. Seemed false as N’s ‘lesbian identity’ was constructed: N edited past, no deep conversations. Close for the first year, non-sexual the last four years, unhappy but familiar. N loved Alison, still friends. Alcohol made it easy to be superficial. Intimate relationship but didn’t talk closely: N denied past, and much of talk was probably lies, so cannot remember now.

10:07 Films: N loved ‘Thelma and Louise’; a documentary impacted N. Felt trapped in relationship and job, didn’t see an alternative, though knew Alison was unhappy. Only knew Alison’s friends: normalised working and getting drunk.

13:28 Anxiety and panic attacks: felt like losing self. Couldn’t explain to doctor; describes physical symptoms. N thought it was physical not mental health: didn’t know about mental health issues. N self-medicated with ‘herbal quiet life tablets’. N’s anxiety challenging for Alison too. N finds it hard to remember: ‘so numb or so lost’.

16:37 Documentary on Channel Four ‘The Decision’ [‘The Wrong Body’, 1996] about a female-to-male trans kid Fred. Amsterdam trans men’s group. N familiar with male-to-female transition, had never heard of female-to-male. Identified with Fred, but his parents were supportive. N felt ‘that’s what I need to do… that’s me… a man trapped in a woman’s body’, but doubtful as comfortable with genitals. Watched documentary repeatedly. Broadcast about a year before N split with Alison.

20:11 Transitioning seemed impossible, terrifying. N worried about others - Alison, work, family - felt it would require a fresh start with people who didn’t know. Sister and N talked about documentary: sister thought of N throughout viewing. N told sister ‘that’s what I want to do’: sister made it easy for N. This was the beginning. Didn’t tell other people. Dressed less neutral, more masculine: tried to ‘perform masculinity’, ‘start living as male’. People noticed but didn’t say.

24:08 End of relationship with Alison, not because of transitioning: N suggested couldn’t go on and Alison agreed, which shocked and terrified N. Moved back in with Mum, nowhere else to go. N applied to college and left work: linked with transition, worried about customers. N wanted to go to university: no expectation when young being from Bellshill, now felt capable and thought best place to transition, could be anonymous. N devastated after end of relationship with Alison. Felt had to go back, start again but try it differently. N and Mum didn’t speak.

[Ends 28:30]

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00:00 Started access course at Coatbridge College: loved it, didn’t find it difficult. Started college androgynous, introduced self as ’Nicky’. Class of 13, 1 man coming out as gay, half of class had a same-sex-experience: stories shared over alcohol. Most brilliant and worst of times: N internalised concerns, but wrote every night about feelings.

02:42 G.P. visit: N disclosed struggles with gender, G.P. focused on sexuality. N frustrated, felt had to lie about sexual attraction to meet expectations. Referred to psychiatrist in Bellshill. N critical of psychiatry. Referred on to experienced psychiatrist, Carswell House, Glasgow. N wanted testosterone after seeing physical impact on ‘The Decision’. N read definition of Gender Identity Disorder in psychiatric diagnostic manual: N thinks society has a gender disorder. N lied to fit into definition to receive the treatment from psychiatrist: common trans experience. Psychiatrist categorical about sexuality and gender binary: N ‘played the game’ to be seen as a ‘true transsexual’ to receive hormones.

07:13 Accepted to Strathclyde University: in first year N wanted to be known as ‘Nick’ with male pronouns. Started telling people at college. Sister told Mum, N wrote letter to Dad. N tried to fit into label of ‘transsexual man’ and used those definitions to explain. Dad found it extremely difficult. Mum didn’t understand why N had to change. For N it was about self expression. Mum diagnosed with breast cancer: N felt guilty for causing Mum stress and internalised anger. Transitions coincided: N’s gender and Mum’s cancer. Difficult time to talk about: ‘overload’. Struggled with university, mum’s cancer and transition.

11:56 Second year of university. Official name change needed to get testosterone: required letter from G.P. stating N was transsexual living permanently as male to get statutory declaration. ‘Nick Laird’ on official documents, also ‘male’ on passport. Interesting time, living as male but no hormones so didn’t ‘pass’. Return of question: ‘are you a boy or a girl?’ Difficult time: Mum died March 1999, impacted university and N started testosterone in August.

15:21 No test to be allowed hormones. N did fit diagnostic manual definition: ‘persistent discomfort with gender’, but the manual pathologises trans experiences, while it is society’s fault through rigid binary. Not something wrong with us, but we had to go along with psychiatric perspective for transition: it’s the rules that are wrong.

17:53 N didn’t make friends at university. N was the only person who completed university from college: determined, needed to prove to self. Had started university aged 26, but looked adolescent due to hormone treatment - looked like ‘wee boy’ not mature student - difficult to relate to other students. Routine of university and home.

20:50 N rented room off Alison at start of university. Alison attending Alcoholics Anonymous. N told Alison about transition: Alison angry, resistant. N believes Alison felt guilty and began to be supportive, making amends in accordance with 12 Step Programme. N didn’t talk to other people, focused on university.

23:33 N loves testosterone, the physical differences, although people make assumptions because of appearance and don’t fully see who N is. Comfortable, can express self better. First changes: increase in libido, voice broke. N looked adolescent; more muscular. At time N tried to overcompensate: hyper-masculine. Portrayed heterosexual male: denied attraction to men. N feared people would question masculinity - ‘because of my sex people didn’t accept my masculinity’. N’s masculinity always seemed undermined: by body, by others. Very sensitive to ‘she’. N was hard on family - appreciates challenges then and

understands mistakes now.

[Ends 29:06]

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00:00 N was expected to want genital surgery: wanted flat chest but comfortable with existing genitals. ‘True transsexual’ diagnosis focused on genitals, so pressure to say wanted phalloplasty. ‘All or nothing’ attitude, ‘gender identity disorder’ so expected to take all treatments. Trans men N knows have no interest in genital surgery. Peer support informs people now but N fears people may have unnecessary surgery due to medical model. Hierarchy in trans community: N dislikes where those with genital surgery are seen as ‘complete’. Sex and Gender Diversity Conference speaker: ‘my penis is female because it’s mine’ - gender put onto body parts, difference between sex and gender. N: ‘biological characteristics don’t determine what my gender is’.

05:09 Through hormones N had some male characteristics but had to hide breasts. Difficult years waiting for breast removal surgery: N complained about waiting list for Canniesburn Hospital, but N’s surgery compared with tattoo removal. At Sandyford Clinic, N talked to Dr Carr, a ‘gender specialist’ (though N expresses doubts about the term) who ‘has a better picture of what it’s really like’, and who pushed Glasgow Health Board to pay for surgery at Ross Hall, a private hospital, within a few weeks, as had been waiting years.

07:32 Just afterwards N was asked about ‘next stage’, but N felt could now say no [to genital surgery]. Now there is less expectation to have genital surgery, though psychiatrists still tend to expect it. N never seriously considered phalloplasty: scars and risks put N off, ‘doesn’t look like a penis to me’, wouldn’t make N more of a man, and is major surgery.

10:10 N didn’t make friends at university but people noticed changes: went unsaid, strange but N liked being anonymous. Used alcohol to escape, N not alcoholic but went to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with Alison: a lot wrong with AA but N always felt accepted, ‘I was just Nick and male’, group support. Didn’t talk about gender, but e.g. about Mum dying. AA provided social contact, so N lied about identity again, saying was alcoholic when not. Through AA made own friends, rather than relying on Alison’s. Made friends at Glasgow’s gay AA meetings: went to cinema, bowling, ‘brilliant time because I was able to make friends as male’. N able to talk about transition with close friend John, most of whose friends were gay: John had to come out as heterosexual, and is now studying anthropology in America.

17:54 N introduced to gay man from Bellshill: one of the worst reactions to transitioning, he blamed internalised homophobia. N didn’t reveal attraction to men. Attraction to men didn’t fit into lesbian identity or transitioning: N found it difficult to understand.

20:10 N first shared attraction to men at AA as others were sharing their own insecurities around sex. Close to Ceri, a Welsh guy: self-disclosure built trust, helped

N open up, knew it was judgement free. N would like everyone to be as honest as people at AA are. N was honest with Ceri about attraction and experiences with men: helped N be more honest with self.

[Ends 24:00]

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00:00 N partly convinced self of being heterosexual male: was attracted to women, but always more attracted to masculinity as a gender expression, rather than an individual’s sex. Tried to live up to stereotype of masculinity, though N knew it was false. Tried to have ‘high femme’ girlfriend, while N’s getting off with androgynous woman was kept secret, as it looked more lesbian than heterosexual male.

03:45 N struggles with labels: acts or thinks in a way that contradicts the label. Always had to give up a bit of self to fit in with a label. N would rather have none of them or all of them, so as to express self more freely and not be hemmed in. Performance of heterosexual male was difficult, and N wasn’t very good at it. When honest about attraction to men, N adopted ‘gay man’ label: relief, dropped hyper-masculinity: ‘much freer because I didn’t have to pretend’. To be a gay man, N was denying had ever been attracted to women: again trying to conform to label. N didn’t fit sexual label, as had not had genital surgery, so already had broadened ‘gay man’ label. N looked for meaning: rationalising past relationships, such as Alison. ‘I was trying to deny what went before because it didn’t fit anymore, rather than just allowing what went before to still be part of you’.

07:49 Distanced self from Alison. Lesbians did not understand N and became defensive. N’s transition to male and attraction to men had implications for Alison: what did that make her? Homophobic bullying is all about gender, and for lesbian and gay people transitioning can be seen almost as betrayal. Lesbians gave impression that N was a traitor. Despite transition, they did not fully accept N was male, so it was the attraction to men that was the real issue.

11:39 N was resigned to being single: accepted this as sacrifice. N couldn’t meet expectation of having a penis. Enjoyed being single. At an AA meeting met Mark, who didn’t know N’s trans status. Talked and got on well together. N felt Mark’s attraction couldn’t go anywhere due to N’s body. Mark disclosed HIV status, and N felt could be open and disclosed ‘I was born female’ and, still before breast surgery, was only using hormones. N was shocked that Mark was attracted. N attracted but afraid, initially said no to relationship, partly due to HIV, partly due to N’s fear of taking clothes off: ‘how could he possibly want to be with me?’ But strong feeling of wanting to be with him one night, and they got together and it was fine. N tried to rationalise this, to fit it into labels. Mark still saw himself as gay man, had no problems with it. Told Dad about relationship: ‘Mark’s no gay if he’s with you’: this angered N, didn’t want to undermine Mark’s identity. N attracted to Mark due to his strong sense of self: helped N become more secure. The other person’s identity does not have to affect N’s identity.

22:39 Before Mark, there was a straight man, who had had same-sex experiences,

and knew N was trans. N on testosterone had heightened sex drive, and this man fulfilled the need for sex. Were friends before and afterwards. Man wanted sex but didn’t want people to know, would have questioned his identity. It was just sex, no expectation it was ever going to be a relationship. Man said, ‘I don’t really see you as male or female’, which is the closest to how N has always felt. How others relate to N is important, ‘he never made me feel like a woman or a man … he saw me more truly than other people did.’

27:45 N feels own gender is sort of masculine, free to express femininity, more balanced since taking hormones. Hard to describe without accepting gender binary: prefers talking in terms of colour, blue and pink: N was never a ‘pink girl’ and will never be a ‘blue boy’, through different experiences and body. It’s something different altogether, which is why N feels more yellow. N isn’t projecting a look: uses male pronouns, people would say clothes are men’s but they are what N is comfortable in – ‘they’re just bits of material and they’re mine.’ Doesn’t want to define it: not really female or male – being a mixture makes you something else.

[Ends 30:46]