Summary of Oral History Interview by OurStory Scotland

Interviewee: Edwin Morgan

Interviewer: Jaime Valentine and Liam O'Driscoll

Place of Interview: Hyndland, Glasgow

Date of Interview: 9 May 2005

Summariser: Jenny Simmons

Accession no. AA006

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00:00 Edwin Morgan [EM] born 27 April 1920 in Glasgow. Father clerk in Iron and Steel Works, mother typist in same firm. Reception of EM’s work following the 1990 interview with Christopher Whyte and the question of apprehension about coming out. EM explains muted reaction in literary world, some had guessed, some were surprised. Mentions one strong reaction from someone unsympathetic to homosexuality for whom the love poems were ‘spoiled’. EM felt some guilt hadn’t been more open in 60s when very much in love but wrote in coded way. 1990 aged seventy, needed to be truthful about his sexuality. Talks about context of Christopher Whyte interview in which he came out.

06:04 EM not sure how far he would say he was a part of the gay community: writer is solitary by nature. Enjoys contributing with poetry readings/talks at Dixon Street [LGBT Centre]. About expectations on him after coming out, how he has dealt with them. Was able to be more open, e.g. about things that were physically sexual. It’s like waving a flag to the gay community: here we are. Irrespective of subject matter, important thing was that it would be a good poem. About the power in concealment, gives example of poem ‘Glasgow Green’, which became standard school text. About positives in ambiguity, still enjoys writing obliquely. Sees his poem about Edith Piaf [‘Je ne regrette rien’] as a gay poem about a gay icon.

14:10 Impact of American poet Hart Crane. When fifteen/sixteen EM had a Latin and piano tutor who was possibly gay. Their discussions often centred on gay writers: Proust, Lorca. EM’s father described the tutor as an ‘awful jessie’, more an amused reaction than critical. Story of going to tea rooms in Glasgow with mother and aunt, noticing one lesbian dressed like a man, aunt commenting she always felt sorry for people like that, so EM’s first image of lesbian was of being sad.

20:58 Felt different at school, at 12 or 13, but homosexuality so little discussed, so had no help. Had strong crushes on other boys of same age. Was aware of possibility of loneliness as a problem. Went to university at 17, then could talk more openly. Close friend Frank at university was heterosexual. Being rebuffed is hurtful, so try to avoid it.

25:20 Army was very liberating: intense friendships. Describes first physical relationship with man during wartime when serving in medical corps, passionate affair, took great risks: danger of court martial. Very physical, not love. True love later in 60s with John. Defines what he means by love.

28:43 Explains common labels for gays in 60s: pansy or queer. Didn’t apply such terms to himself or his character, despite a sense of difference and non-heterosexual experiences. EM’s slow process of awareness and acceptance. When he returned to

university after the war, he was aware of other gay students and lecturers, but was never a great joiner of groups, and just went his own way. Going his own way meant that he didn’t always have the vocabulary: he did what he wanted to do without defining it. ‘It doesn’t worry me now, whatever people call me. I don’t mind at all, but I think that it probably is a fact that there’s no 100% in these matters: everyone is partly this and partly that.’ Mentions fact that many Glaswegian men have homosexual experiences without necessarily having gay identity. Example of relationship with G, happily married man with children: relationship with EM helped him maintain married life.

[Ends 33:57]

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00:00 EM only child, no family now except one distant cousin. Importance of different friendships, mentions three: Christopher Whyte, who opened up the whole subject and keeps in touch; Margaret, a straight female friend, who was the first person he told and was very supportive; young heterosexual friend Mark, whom he met at Edinburgh Science Festival [1998], instant attraction on EM’s part. Parents deaths 1965/1970: EM explains how difficult it would’ve been to tell them. Mother dropped hints about his marrying, but must have sensed something, and stopped asking about marriage. She knew John, and knew how close he was to John: during a bad patch in that relationship, EM’s mother wrote to John, suggesting they get back together.

06:05 EM’s relationship with John: met in a cinema, then weekly, but never lived together. EM had to write alone: writer first of all, and human relationships come after that. John came from a large Catholic family in Carluke. Long conversations, lots of fun, humour and stories. John knew some of the poems were about him. Went to cinema and theatre, walks, holidays together. Went to most of countries of Europe. Longer staying together would have got on each other’s nerves. Could be freer while on holiday, but once in the Netherlands, which is fairly free and easy, made the mistake of holding hands together and found that people were looking. In Glasgow couldn’t show affection outwardly.

11:30 EM and John met in Glasgow in Green’s Playhouse, the largest cinema in Europe, which was a hive of gay activity. Still had to be careful: periodic ‘cleaning up’ operations, puritanical moments, flashing torches to see if you were up to anything. EM was caught with someone, but got in again after a week or so. Meeting places included pubs, parks and cinemas – 140 cinemas in Glasgow. If didn’t enjoy talking, then you probably didn’t enjoy the pub scene, which in Glasgow was always on the verge of being violent. By word of mouth learnt places to go, and where not. Aware of threat of violence. Scary moment in a pub in Dublin, caught in flagrante, but barman didn’t call the police, which would have meant the end of EM’s career. Theatres in Glasgow, hanging over rails of the gallery, possibility of touching. Alhambra was one. ‘There were always people to be met in these places.’ In theatre/film was aware of Noel Coward and Dirk Bogarde. Might speculate on an actor’s sexuality.

18:53 The residual Calvinism of Glasgow: even a glance in the street could be dangerous. Two guys at a bus stop must have sensed EM looking, EM had to

escape on bus. In Glasgow you are easily made to feel guilty about things. About religion in childhood, churchgoing family. At 6 or 7 was told by mother there was an eye up there watching you. Stopped going to church around 16, despite terrible scenes at home. Agnostic, and doesn’t see himself having a late conversion.

23:01 Friends found him current Nursing Home, describes his accommodation, staff, don’t know how much they know. The big change is that people are not so upset and worried now about such things. The question of ageist attitudes that assume old people are without sexual feelings: EM looks and listens and knows this isn’t true. It’s very wrong to be ageist. He has had no problems that way.

[Ends 25:50]

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00:00 ‘Night Pillion’: real life story behind poem. Young artist who lived near EM: they had been to see art exhibition, and EM was offered lift home on a motorbike. Exciting: attracted by him and EM’s first time on a motorbike. Last two lines express intense moment of closeness that broke shell of solitude. Solitude as negative and positive in EM’s life: always wanted a seesaw between solitude and company.

05:30 ‘A Memorial’: poem written after coming out, able to write about unattended toilets as places to meet. Jean Genet had written in prose about such unspoken aspects of human experience, but EM didn’t know of any poetry that openly talks about such things. Wanted to write about this in an obvious way, without disguise, but to make it a good poem. If poetry is important, it can write about any aspect of human experience. It’s the kind of poem that would divide people.

08:07 ‘Persuasion’ in the collection ‘Hold Hands Among the Atoms’: EM now has the choice to write open, explicit poem or more coded.

09:20 [‘Christmas Eve’]: man’s hand on knee was a clear signal, along with ‘Don’t ge’ aff tae ah ge’ aff.’ Man had been drinking, so more open, less cautious. The codes of recognition in the 1950s and 1960s might be a walk, a glance, or stopping to look in a shop window – jeweller’s shop was a favourite. Could use reference to gay writers as a code, or as in the poem about Edith Piaf [‘Je ne regrette rien’], which EM again says he sees as a gay poem.

14:01 Politically, EM has never been a great joiner of movements, but sympathetic and gave support to the people in Dixon Street (LGBT Centre). Meant a lot when the law changed: took longer in Scotland, 1980 rather than 1967: ‘13 years more to be very careful.’ In Section 2A debate in Scotland [where repeal came earlier than repeal of Section 28 in the rest of the UK], EM was deeply involved, standing up against Cardinal Winning’s views and medieval language, and contrasting him with admirable figures from gay history: ‘Section 28’ poem on Not Winning ['You are not. Winning, I mean.’] EM as a famous figure in the LGBT movement in Scotland. Earlier Scottish poets may have been gay, but no way of knowing due to secrecy in those times: EM thinks Robert Fergusson was probably gay. Mentions Fred Urquhart as a contemporary writer of short stories, who eventually came out. There is a whole hidden history to be brought out.

21:07 EM cautiously optimistic about present freedoms, puritan backlash always possible. Hostility comes from Glasgow thinking of itself as a macho city, West of Scotland masculinity, that is upset by suggestion that men are not manly all the time. In pubs, disapproval may be shown to gay people, or refusal to serve. Contradictions attract him: a writer likes drama. Reference back to army days: in the absence of women, natural for men to take pleasure in each other’s bodies. T.E. Lawrence wrote of this: probably bisexual, like so many others. Changing meaning of queer and gay: queer earlier used with disapproval, but now used positively with queer studies; gay goes a long way back, could involve women as well as men, not necessarily sexual.

[Ends 29:08]