Summary of Oral History Interview by OurStory Scotland

Interviewee: Margaret

Interviewer: Jaime Valentine (and occasional questions from friend)

Place of Interview: Bridge of Allan

Date of Interview: 2 May 2005

Summariser: Jenny Simmons

Accession no. AA005

Margaret01

00:00 Margaret [M], aged 58, born Glasgow 1947. Left school at 16. One brother. Father alcoholic: M had to listen to all kinds of abuse at weekends. Father was very bigoted: in later life she could not have come out to him. Mother was very loving and made up for what Dad didn’t give. Not well-off. Tenement block – religious mix.

03:39 The year things switched on for M was 1955, watching the film ‘Calamity Jane’: women together seemed perfect. All girls class at school. 24 in class, 8 called Margaret. Leading up to school dances the girls would practise with a girl partner. Preferred dancing with girls, not attracted to boys. M didn’t know any gay people until aged 40. Working-class Glaswegian circles, not many people came out. Played with boy as child, later on found out he was gay. Tough area to live in. M was tomboy: didn’t like playing with dolls and prams, even though very maternal now.

08:57 When M went to secondary school, sexual feelings opened up, but because nobody spoke about anything, you had to contend with it yourself. Had a strong attraction to a friend, which was returned. Friend was still attracted to boys too: M upset about this. As M began to get more confused later in life, she blamed the friend for instigating it, but this was wrong. Went to dancehalls. Had one boyfriend for two years, more of a pal: you had to have a boyfriend. Loved to have gone away, to emigrate, but couldn’t leave her mother with her father, because M was the one person who stood up to him.

11:34 Aged 21, she married the only man to whom she had ever been attracted. Marriage at the time was right for M: was happy to get married. Met at school. Girl she had been in love with was still in her life. The night M got married, this friend was in tears, and M gave her a ring. Moved to England. Husband away with Army. Stayed in Aldershot. Saw lesbian soldiers, but to M seemed like men: didn’t want to be associated with them. Trousers still unusual for women. First pair of trousers, aged 17. Didn’t identify with lesbians. Had son and daughter. Enjoyed motherhood.

16:33 Unfinished business as children got older. More time for herself. Bought first gay book, Rubyfruit Jungle: frightened buying it in supermarket, hid it. Watched Desert Hearts secretly. Phoned Gay Switchboard in Glasgow. M was asked if married, and was warned to think about consequences: set her back two years. Marriage broke down: not a bad marriage, but couldn’t go through the pretence of the bedroom. Aged 41/42, financially dependent on husband. Fear of being alone. Separated. Delayed divorce for 5 years for financial reasons.

23:39 After attempts to date in singles club, rejected that and contacted Lesbian Line.

Was 42 and felt ancient. Not used to having time for herself. Through Lesbian Line, met two women in George Square. They were much younger, dressed in very different way, and M could not identify with them. M didn’t want to be seen going across George Square with them. Worried might be seen by daughter’s friends. Nervous wreck. When talked, they were very understanding. Arranged to meet someone of M’s own age.

28:55 Met woman of same age. Realised there were ‘all different types of people out there’. Woman she met was married and having affair with woman 20 years younger. Invited to women’s disco at Glasgow School of Art, hidden from family. Wore dress, and realised it was the wrong thing to wear. There is a dress code, also politics and lifestyle that were unfamiliar to M, e.g. veganism. One woman said ‘you’re new aren’t you?’ Felt out of place but also at peace. Left after an hour.

33:27 Felt isolated, nobody to talk to. Felt had to go through with it, so got in touch with Lesbian Line, met one or two friends, met a partner 20 years younger. Worried about being seen in a gay bar: partner had to bully her into it. One night in gay bar saw woman she knew, and was worried rumours would start.

[Ends 37:00]

Margaret02

Concealed life from children. Later on children started to suspect something. Son was still living at home. M was asked to move in with a woman. Asked son to stay with uncle, which M now thinks was wrong. Needed to give reason for moving: lied and said needed to rent out flat for money. Moved back after a year. Still in relationship with woman, kept hidden. Bought house together in Glasgow. Son had moved out by now; both children living with partners. M gave spiel that didn’t want to live alone. Unhappiness about keeping it hidden. Some years later M came out: son’s reaction was better. Daughter still doesn’t like it, doesn’t talk about it. Told brother. Asked family if they knew, but although had suspicions they hadn’t wanted to think about it.

05:37 Came out at 42. Had set up group for older lesbians, became treasurer. Important to have someone of own age group when coming out, or finding yourself alone after long term relationship. Group of 15-20 women all 35+ met through Lesbian Line. Thought of a name: OLGA – Older Lesbians Getting Around, could keep the group secret within straight society. Still hidden from family while treasurer; nervous about depositing cheques in bank. Pleased about association with OLGA and keeps in touch. Meet in GLC [Glasgow Gay and Lesbian Centre] on Saturday afternoons. Would liked to have been more out and able to befriend other women in same situation. Easier for younger people now due to education.

11:48 Son has spoken twice about men approaching him. There are still anti-gay jokes in family situations. Haven’t included children in her life as a lesbian. Son showed tenderness when she told him. Daughter married into Catholic family who may disapprove, though son-in-law has gay friend. Gay men accepted, gay women not. Works in factory: not out at work, understandably if you listen to some of the talk.

Workforce mainly young males. Example of young lesbian who won tribunal, because of sexual bullying.

15:55 Terms used for lesbian/gay. Talks about lack of knowledge at school: lesbians were invisible. Lack of education about sexuality and feelings during puberty. Gran from Isle of Lewis had female friend from Inverness who visited once a year and would share bed with Gran: Grandpa was put in other bedroom. Cousin later said this woman was gay. Gran’s eldest son apparently caught them and never spoke to them again. M wondered if Gran was gay. M could never come out to father. Mother now too frail to be told: had just wanted M to be happy, and M felt she could not bring extra burden of worry to mother. Brother was fine, but didn’t understand: spoke of his lesbian fantasy.

23:59 No partner now. Not discussed with family. Life in limbo. Moved in with mother one year ago. Taking care of her, as totally disabled. Full time carer: no time for anything else. Family glad to have her back in role as carer. M has had 2 lives, married and gay, and the best of both worlds. Lucky going into retirement and having a grandchild. Loves children and glad not to have missed out.

27:35 Support from friends within lesbian community. Being alone is difficult whether gay or straight when interacting with couples. No longer seeking a relationship. More settled, and not as frightened of being on her own. Talks to best friend who gives support, doesn’t have to hide anything: without that friendship would be very lonely. Fortunate to have 20 years of marriage and then relationships with women. M felt her own lack of education: most women in the lesbian community were professional. Has open up lots of different things to her, including books and music. ‘In that respect it has been a better life.’

[Ends 33:00]

Margaret03

M can tell a story, but that’s what was difficult when she came out, because wasn’t confident: lost part of personality. Within a group could usually hold attention and make people laugh. When entered the gay world, lost confidence. Didn’t know what was right or wrong. Choice of words in conversation, un-PC (not politically correct). Frightened to speak: lack of education let her down. Felt she was losing the personality she had. Didn’t know how to tune into person’s sense of humour because unsure of self. Desperately wanted to be in the gang and accepted but didn’t know how. Could be misinterpreted as coming on to a woman when just wanting to gain a friend. Popular at school, but confidence went. M feels she should just have been herself, as there were a lot of insecure women around her, shallow, and M was missing close friendships.

[Ends 05:07]