Summary of Oral History Interview by OurStory Scotland

Interviewee: Stewart Brown

Interviewer: Jaime Valentine

Place of Interview: Fire Brigades Union, Glasgow

Date of Interview: 14 January 2005

Summariser: Jenny Simmons

Accession no. AA003

StewartBrown1a

00:00 Stewart Brown [SB] born 1970 Dumbarton. Moved to Linwood, Renfrewshire. Moved to Paisley aged 24. One brother. Lived next to school. Nice neighbourhood. Aged 13-14 thought ‘something not quite right’ because didn’t fancy girls. Bullied at primary school, remembers coming home crying. Teachers were aware of it but were not prepared to do anything about it. Enjoyed school. Linwood High school. Good student, academic achievements, stayed on for 5th year.

04:38 Began thinking about employment. Didn’t want to go to University. Working-class parents, income important. Stewart chose between civil engineer and firefighter. Went for interview for civil engineering: didn’t get the job. Fire service instead. Good career, early retirement possible, didn’t see downsides. Advice at age 15/16 from retired fireman. Minimum age 18 to join. Left school, worked as apprentice gardener with Council. Turned 19, got interview with fire service, attended selection centre: physical and mental tests. Was accepted: joined fire service in October 1989. 15 years have flown by since then.

11:00 Bullying at school – homophobic. Aged 9 was asked if knew what a homosexual was. Dominant people within group picked on weakest. Tagged as a ladies’ man, and used that to offset idea that he was gay, especially later on in secondary school, where bullying stopped. Spoke to old school friend who remembered their both being bullied, but who thought it would have made it worse to speak about it together. Bullied for achievements at primary school: best boy. At secondary school distanced from old associates and made new friends. Talks about terms used for gay: main word was poof, generalised term for effeminate, and for those who weren’t part of the ‘smoking round the back wall’ culture. Reasons for bullying: looked pristine, teacher’s pet, didn’t hang around with other boys outside at night. Support from mum, teachers and auxiliaries.

22:06 Knew he was different 13-14. Looked at men in mother’s catalogues. Wasn’t going to get married with two kids. Was taught section 4.6 of sex education in school, and was attracted to pictures of males. Always wanted to be older. Did not admit sexuality to himself until 18. Had been seeing girls throughout teen years. On holiday with friend Ian, met Julia from Essex and then saw her every second weekend. After broke up with her, waited for bus back to Glasgow from London, saw Gay Times in newsagent and bought it. Found out where gay bars were in Glasgow. Realised wasn’t going to be having relationship with a girl, and wanted to find out about the gay scene. Broke ties with Julia and with Ian: went separate way. A lot of pressure with new job, and new world discovered through Gay Times. That was the start of the sexual adventure.

[Ends 29:19]

StewartBrown1b

1988-1989 period of change. Gay scene difficult by public transport from Linwood, but passed driving test. Court Bar was first experience of gay bar: mainly middle-aged men. Bennets nearby: gay nightclub full of happy people. Wanted to be part of it, but had to think about gay men as scourge of society, and not wanting parents to know. Took it step by step: another month before went back on the gay scene. Apprehensive about approaching someone. Relationship for 6 months with man 9 years older. Stayed close friends for 10 years. Boyfriend was an air steward – made friends in airline industry.

04:43 Joining the fire service, didn’t think he could be openly gay – thought might be sacked. 17 weeks at Scottish Fire Service College in Gullane: difficult to maintain relationship with boyfriend. Discovering sexuality, made good friends, but training run on militaristic lines. Unsure of his rights.

07:57 February 1990 finished training school and posted to Port Glasgow Fire Station, a quiet station. Describes experiences of fighting fires. Talks about colleagues – average age much older. Had to hide private life of being gay. A lot of time to talk in fire service: it creeps into your private life too much. Had to lie, but a hopeless liar. Remoteness of station from social life meant he was able to lead a double life. Asked for transfer, was moved to Paisley, and is still attached to the same watch today. It was same core of 18 people for 7-8 years.

16:27 All the men on the watch socialised in Glasgow, and SB seen outside Bennets. Gossiping started. SB knew that something not quite right, banter could be daunting. It went on for about 18 months: SB knew somebody knew something. Regional heats of Mr Gay UK 1994 were on at Bennets: SB won Glasgow heat. Final filmed for Channel 4 programme Passengers. On return from holiday, all colleagues had seen programme. Describes colleagues’ reactions. Coming out nightmare scenario. One friend on the watch said things would be fine, and SB couldn’t have come to a better watch. Union rep Roddy on SB’s watch told him his rights. Station officer had been embarrassed and had no idea how to deal with it. Going to other fire stations was difficult, because they were intrigued or scared or didn’t know what it was.

24:33 Union helped to realise you’re not the only one: Roddy put SB in touch with gay firefighters in London, moral support. That started Stewart’s involvement in LGBT rights in the fire service. Union agreed to networking space within the union for gay and lesbian firefighters. Introduced to Terry Richardson, who started it all. SB’s involvement in Gay and Lesbian Support Group started in 1994. Informal meetings, developed agenda, shared experiences. Asked to travel to other places to talk about it. Visited schools. 1998 had to take a break for 3 months because exhausted. Prejudice still exists. In Northern Ireland asked if SB had separate cutlery, breathing equipment and bedroom, no doubt due to naïve understanding of HIV.

[Ends 31:29]

StewartBrown2a

00:00 Continues about naivety. Talks about sectarianism in West of Scotland and Northern Ireland: bigger problem than being gay. In Northern Ireland they were not interested in gay issues: religion, race, women and disability came before gay issues, which they didn’t want to top the agenda. People want to know more there, but naivety in the fire service and union, where they were scared about talking about the issues.

04:35 Fire service has moved on dramatically. At settling-in course in Cowcaddens, had met a trainer, Alastair. Later met Alastair in Bennets. Built up a friendship. Stories told to him by Alastair about fire service. SB knew he wasn’t alone. SB was advised to keep it quiet. Worried about being sacked. Fire service could have sacked him for being gay, until new legislation brought in 2003, but Union would have protected him.

10:10 Banter among colleagues, people would be picked on, Catholic firefighter had more hassle than gay firefighter. SB very much part of the watch, including its name-calling. Defence was to give as good as you got, but now regrets this. Seen as weakness if you don’t react. SB had the protection of a few others: good friends with John, kick-boxing champion. Socialising outside work, golf.

13:58 SB learnt to avoid downtime where conversation would extend beyond limits with which he was comfortable. When conversation slows down, banter starts: continues in fire engine. Banter on the way back from incidents: claustrophobic in back of fire engine. Became a driver in 1996, more control: on way back, may stop to look at men, rather than girls, to wind up colleagues. The watch went out on gay scene. SB took part in banter, mentality of undermining people: now regrets it. Happened to everyone, for any reason - examples. It is the culture that exists among firefighters. The policies don’t accept discrimination but the militaristic culture continues. Waiting for a fire call, trapped in station.

23:52 Night out with the watch in Glasgow, went to Bennets. They were happy with the night, and each had stories about being approached by men. Story about colleague being confused about gay men queuing for cubicles. On odd occasions afterwards colleagues would visit gay bars with SB. SB happy to go to any bar: didn’t have to be gay bar, and anyway didn’t feel comfortable with them being there in gay bar, would rather just go somewhere local with them.

28:30 Gay men have stereotype of firefighters – impressed by job. This has its benefits: SB has used it to his advantage. Refused doing a firefighters’ calendar, too tacky.

[Ends 31:20]

StewartBrown2b

00:00 Following Section 28 battle and firefighters’ dispute, it’s important to talk to schools – fire safety and fairness message: firefighters are from all different groups, including LGBT. Need to be open to pupils. Gay firefighters would open up career to people who may feel excluded.

03:45 Had no role models or set goals. Never looked to be someone else. Absence of positive role models. In primary school, policeman visited. Stereotypes in media – John Inman, Larry Grayson: SB remembers having open mind about them. Geography teacher called him a poof. Got lines for retaliating: investigation at school, but nothing ever came of it.

09:15 Attended Boys Brigade. Family was Church of Scotland. Went to church as a child, Sunday School. Expected, but not forced. Talks about other religions: was naïve about religion, but understands more now through political side of things.

11:44 Came out to Mum after reading Gay Times. She told Dad. Never discussed. Brother left home, didn’t know if he knew. 1997 Gran died and thereafter SB got closer to brother again. Gran asked if he was still going to gay bars. Family were happy if he was safe and careful. Not discussed with extended family, but they know about it for last 5 years or so. SB is very open through work and Gay Pride etc., so hard to hide it and didn’t want to hide it. Work colleagues of parents have commented on it in a positive way. SB has seen people on brink of suicide in the fire service, and heard stories of continued bullying and harassment that extends to their family. SB’s situation wasn’t that bad.

16:31 Turning 30 in 1999, SB wanted to settle down. Has partner, together 4½ years. Changed SB’s life: partner is career-motivated and pushes SB. Had not been interested in promotion. Involvement in union has educated SB in politics.

18:51 Talks about changes which still need to be made in fire service. More female involvement now. London much further forward on the LGBT issue. 300 members in LGBT support network. Need more positive action, eliminating discrimination. Equality agenda went backwards after dispute about fair pay: union was blamed for not achieving more, and for its progressive policies on equality. Prejudices that existed before are highlighted more now. Will get there through educational system in the union: generational thing. There needs to be a gay high-ranking officer. Still lots to do, around HIV stigma, time off, civil partnership, pension rights.

24:50 Some years ago SB would not have thought he’d be talking about such issues in Westminster, with MPs etc. Parents supportive of his work. Mainly working around equality issues, including with Amnesty International about homophobia in Jamaica. Sits on LGBT TUC committee in London. In-house LGBT magazine: Flagship. Pride events: fire service promoted as good employer for LGBT members.

27:30 Talks about civil partnerships: SB and partner have spoken briefly about it, but not top of agenda. Glad of civil partnership legislation, and would like it extended for opposite sex couples. Would like to see pension rights for a nominated person, without having to register partnership. Downsides to civil partnership: would lose 50% of pension if partnership dissolved – commitment for life. Open as a couple, so they get some recognition as partners.

[Ends 31:32