Summary of Oral History Interview by OurStory Scotland

Interviewee: Steph Tonner

Interviewer: Jaime Valentine

Place of Interview: Glasgow

Date of Interview: 21 July 2004

Summariser: Jenny Simmons

Accession no. AA001

StephTonner1a

00:00 Steph [S] was born Helensburgh 24 December 1960, youngest of twelve children. S was aged two when family moved to Clydebank. S stayed there 29 years, came out as gay when aged thirty, left Clydebank year later. Short account of different places S lived. Spent five years in Edinburgh, involved in gay scene/politics.

02:32 Describes previous involvement in gay politics Glasgow. Came out to family and friends and attended Out on Sunday group. Launched project in 1991 for gay centre in Glasgow. S unemployed registered disabled. Set up network of contacts, committee was formed. Involved in committee for two years, then nervous breakdown in 1993. Went to Edinburgh, explains relationship with Peter, their work with Lantern Group. Continues about coordinating committee for Glasgow Gay Centre, fund raised, including organising annual ceilidh in Winter Gardens [People’s Palace]. LGBT Centre opened 1996. S uses it rarely now.

08:40 Describes first awareness of being different aged nine. Brought up as boy, but wondered why so much like a girl, and not just in attraction to boys. At 14 knew was ‘gay’ but didn’t know the word. Sex a taboo subject in family. Called names at school and imitated because of high-pitched voice. Was shy till about 8 years ago. About siblings: next older is George, four years older, who has Down’s syndrome.

13:07 About S’s late puberty because has Kleinfelter’s Syndrome [KS], how went to America to find out about KS. About first sexual encounter, explains reasons for using artificial testosterone. How S discovered own KS, what was told by doctors in Scotland. From age of 12 to 19 S suffered blackouts, explains reason given at first, how left school to work briefly in shipyards. 1987 diagnosed with KS day after mother’s death. S had no-one to talk to about KS until visited USA. Symptom of KS is short-term memory loss, describes how this affects self.

22:32 Explains how came out as gay, reactions of different members of family, mother had died three years previously. Sister-in-law, who was also a close friend, said she knew since S was 10, no big deal; but S wanted to make it a big deal, had carried it around for years. Came out to rest of family by letter, went well. Brother in New Zealand supportive of gay rights. Story of father, staunch Roman Catholic, offering his bedroom to S and boyfriend when they stayed over.

28:15 Describes how came to understand about intersex, joined support group for KS on internet, found out about Kleinfelter’s Syndrome and Associates, and went to their annual conference, Baltimore USA.

[Ends 31:07]

StephTonner1b

00:00 Continues about four-day trip to USA and what S learnt regarding KS. S considers own KS to be average, explains how it is to do with number of X chromosomes a person has. ADHD [attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder] has at last been associated with KS. S diagnosed with ADD [attention deficit disorder] four years ago, explains it. Describes how spent four years in child guidance centre, because couldn’t settle at school. Learnt little because teachers were not teachers but psychologists. S was bullied. To escape, S volunteered to go to seminary. Bullied there too, but the priests condoned it, said it was character-building: S made suicide attempt aged thirteen. Went to Fern Tower [Adolescent Unit] in Hillhead, no bullying and S enjoyed time there, but doesn’t remember learning anything: mother taught S to spell. About how quick with number sequences people with KS are.

10:35 KS and gender: mentions Michael Noble in Australia, academic writing papers about KS being an intersex condition, but S denied it at first. About S’s lengthy progression to understanding of own intersex condition, full implications of this. Describes surgical changes undergone, explains why people can have physical change to body’s sexual parts but can’t change their sex as defined by chromosomal make-up. Continues about diagnosis in1987 but no correct treatment until 1999, so previously suffered severe depression, tried to kill self on three occasions. About effects of high testosterone treatment, present day methods for taking it, possible side-effects.

18:17 In last 3-4 years began to see self as intersex rather than gay male; also attracted to both males and females. Category of ‘queer’ suits S best because doesn’t consider self ‘normal’, reasons why no wish to be ‘normal’, body is different, also difficulties of periodic impotency.

22:50 S is known as intersex to one partner, who also has KS and is intersex: this partner sees himself as male but is unsure if he (and relationship with S) is gay or straight. S now likes ability to cross boundaries: can be any of LGBT, while transgender covers all aspects – not to be confused with transsexual. To outside world, S is male unless in drag: has done drag for charity etc. Possible role model for S is Paul O’Grady. As a teenager could identify with John Inman who acted gay man as camp, but S now realises gay is not necessarily camp. When first came out, contacted [Gay and Lesbian] Switchboard: John Wilkes was a volunteer [later recorded for OurStory Scotland] and introduced S to Icebreakers at Austin’s Bar in Hope Street. S went every month, and Icebreakers then became Out on Sunday and the launch of the GLC [Gay and Lesbian Centre] project.

[Ends 31:04]

StephTonner2a

00:00 About first relationship, Kenny from Edinburgh. S had testosterone implants

which re-kicked puberty even though in thirties. S wanted open relationship, Kenny agreed, but in practice finished relationship. In Edinburgh S had short-term relationships characteristic of people with KS, due to short-term memory loss. Tried to meet people on the gay scene but no good at chatting up. Describes gay centre in Broughton St, Edinburgh, and continues about the Lantern Group, which met downstairs: when meeting, a lantern was in the window. This social group had outings to Glasgow and Stirling – disco held by Stirling group [Forth Friend].

08:33 Reasons why returned to Glasgow: father in eighties, brother George at home, used to visit them in Clydebank every week, needed to support them. No friends in Edinburgh. S obtained present home in Glasgow in 1997 through Home Swap. Father had stroke month later, died year and half later aged 86. Father lost faith, regretted time and money spent on Catholic Church, and disappointed by Cardinal Winning not visiting in hospital until very end. Teetotaller father asked for whisky at the end, but just sniffed it. Important period for family members: father talked as he’d never done before. S non-believer since leaving seminary, only three of the twelve siblings remained Catholics. Church left S with feelings of guilt. S had to battle against this and memories of being sexually abused as a child by a relative, who eventually apologised after more than twenty years.

19:36 Five members of family migrated to Australia and New Zealand, two brothers Bill and John close to S and supportive. S gets most support from friends. Family keep in touch via internet. Background to relationship with brother George, ‘me and my shadow’: mother always made S take George along too, S resented this. About S’s wild temper as child because suffering from ADHD, threw things, explains how this felt. Story of psychiatrist telling mother S just faked blackouts. Reasons why S didn’t tell siblings about KS and intersex: asked them to watch Channel 4 TV programme about the condition. Some didn’t respond; positive response from Bill and John. George was in the programme. The Kleinfelter’s Association UK made official complaints about it, otherwise it was well received.

[Ends 31:09]

StephTonner2b

00:00 About how S defines self for bureaucratic purposes as male where given binary choice: including ‘other’ is step in right direction. S would like birth certificate and passport to reflect intersex gender. Mentions Alex MacFarlane, Australian who has succeeded in doing this. Describes positive aspects of having KS. Can understand both genders because is both. Believes in openness and honesty between partners.

04:35 About S’s present disabilities, describes when first began to collapse, diagnosed with arthritis and peripheral neuropathy [damage to nerve endings], not certain if related to KS. Explains how began to use crutches, then manual wheelchair, now electric wheelchair. Reasons why S hasn’t joined disability groups.

11:11 About disappointing response from LGBT community to S being intersex and disabled. Only LGBT Centre has wheelchair accessibility. Doesn’t feel recognised at

LGBT Centre for all the groundwork S did for creation of the Centre. Volunteered at Centre, but volunteers not respected for hard work they do. Centre seems currently unwelcoming and unlikely to survive. Centre relies on the café. Vision was initially for a vibrant community centre.

15:48 Support for S in the future: hopes for support from friends plus paid assistants. S has seven different home-helps at present, explains shortcomings. S is open about sexuality: one home-help complained, but social worker said this was sexual discrimination. Dreams of retiring to Malaga, Spain. S has hopes and dreams rather than fears: doesn’t allow self to feel fearful about future. S makes life content: hard work but worth it.

[Ends 19:47]